SCRIPT OF THE DEBATE BETWEEN LAS CASAS AND SEPULVEDA

Note: Las Casas and Sepulveda never held a live face-to-face debate. The following is a dramatic recreation not a literal event. However, the words within quotation marks are taken from the written works of the respective authors.

Pleasure to introduce: Friar Bartolomé de las Casas. encomendero on island of Cuba. But in 1514 renounced encomienda and joined Dominican Brotherhood, using new position to denounce cruelties of Span and defend Inds.

Other guest, Dr. Juan Ginés de Sepulveda, eminent classical scholar and historian of Spanish Civ. Author of numerous books and treatises. Never been to Americas.

Each guest outline position:

Las Casas:

Thank you, Dr. Chambers. I am glad that you mentioned the missionary task of our Catholic monarchs. I believe that the Spaniards do have the right to trade with and preach to the Indians, but by the same token we must respect their natural rights. We have no right to wage war upon them, and even if we did it would be counterproductive to our goals because it would alienate the Indians from Christianity. "Why will they believe such a proud, greedy, cruel, and rapacious nation?" No, if the Indians are to become true Christians, their conversion will only come about through persuasion and our own pious example.

Sepulveda:

Well, the monk's words are certainly honeyed and seductive, but what is this nonsense about no right to wage war? I base my argument the time-honored works of classical philosophers such as Aristotle. Thus the Greeks and Romans waged war, and built empires, but in the just cause of spreading civilization. Moreover, no one would argue for the cowardly and deceitful route of ambush. No, "In warfare it is proper that hostilities first be declared, so that barbarians may be admonished to accept the great benefits provided by the victor, to learn his best laws and customs, to familiarize themselves with the true religion, and to admit the sovereignity of the king of Spain. If they reject this sovereignity they may be mistreated as enemies of the Spaniards, Spaniards who were sent by the king for the purpose of dominating them. If the barbarians request time to deliberate, they should be granted as much time as they need to summon a public meeting and make their decision, but they should not be allowed an excessive period of time." This is precisely the purpose of the requerimiento, as Dr. Chambers pointed out.

Las Casas:

I am afraid I must object. Dr. Sepulveda is trying to appeal to your audience by calling the natives of the Americas "barbarians." But such an argument is based in emotion rather than fact. All humans belong to one race, and they are distinguished from beasts by their capacity for rational thought. I have proven in numerous treatises that the Indians are in fact rational beings not barbarians. Look at the civilization of the Mexican people, for example: it rivals the achievements of the Romans and Greeks whom Sepulveda so admires. The Mexicans had commerce, they had political structures, they had, in short, a civil society.

Sepulveda:

Now it is my turn to object for the friar distorts my position. I have never asserted that the Indians are animals, though even ants and bees can build basic structures of government and society. No, they are most certainly men, but what class of men? "They not only lack culture but do not even use or know about writing or preserve records of their history--save for some obscure memory of certain deeds contained in painting. They lack written laws and their institutions and customs are barbaric. And as for their virtues, if you wish to be informed of their moderation and mildness, what can be expected of men committed to all kinds of passion and nefarious lewdness and of whom not a few are given to the eating of human flesh. Do not believe that their life before the coming of the Spaniards was one of Saturnine peace, of the kind that poets sang about. On the contrary, they made war with each other almost continuously, and with such fury that they considered a victory to be empty if they could not satisfy their prodigious hunger with the flesh of their enemies."

Las Casas:

"Even though the Indians cannot be excused in the sight of God for worshipping idols, yet they can be excused in the sight of men..." Why? Because many ancient societies have, out of ignorance, excercised the same error. Yes, even the doctor's beloved Romans and Greeks--our own ancestors--have committed human sacrifice!

Host:

Wait, please let me interject for a moment. It seems to me we could go on debating for hours whether or not the Indians are barbarians, but the question before us is whether the Spaniards are justified in their conquest of America? How does the nature of the Indians relate to the issue at hand?

Las Casas:

Do the Spaniards have a right to be in America? Yes but only for the purpose of spreading the word of the Lord. And how does this relate to my argument that the Indians are rational beings? Because "The one and only method of teaching men the true religion was established by Divine Providence for the whole world, and for all times, that is, by persuading the understanding through reasons. This method should be common to all men throughout the world, without any distinction made for sects, errors, or corrupt customs." As I said at the beginning, the natives must be attracted to the true religion through peaceful means; waging war upon them will only turn them away from the Church.

Host:

I see, so the debate is one between Church and State. The Church wants to convert and the State to conquer?

Sepulveda:

No, whatever the monk implies, it most certainly is not a debate between the Church and the State. The monarchs of Spain and I share his desire to spread the true religion. Moreover, there are many friars who agree with the methods I propose and recognize Las Casas as an idealistic pen-pusher with little experience with the task of missionizing. How can you reason with a barbarian who is performing a human sacrifice? No, you must use force if necessary to end such mortal sins. Only when the Indians have been made to stop such barbarities, can the process of conversion begin.

Host:

So both of you believe the Indians must be converted to the Catholic faith, but you disagree on the proper methods. But I still feel that we are not addressing the central issue. If the goal is only Christianization, what gives the Spanish crown the right to colonize these lands? By what right does the king have sovereignty over America?

Sepulveda:

I am so glad you asked that question. You see, the mission of religious conversion cannot be separated from another very sacred mission: that of bringing civilization. And here is where the barbarous nature of the Indians is important to my argument. As Aristotle has asserted so eloquently, by the law of natural slavery the superior must always dominate the inferior: it is not only the right but the duty of the glorious Spanish nation to educate these barbarians, to turn them from beasts into men. "How can we doubt that these people--so uncivilized, so barbaric, contaminated with so many impieties and obscenities--have been justly conquered by such an excellent, pious, and just king, as Ferdinand was and as the Emperor Charles is now, and by a nation excellent in every kind of virtue, with the best law and best benefit for the barbarians?" And the monarchs, in their wisdom, have recognized the special valor and virtue of their Spanish subjects, and so they have delegated this task to them through the encomienda, a most perfect institution. It seems to me the monk is suggesting treason when he asserts the right of the Church over the Crown.

Host:

How about that Father Las Casas? Are you denying the sovereignty of the Spanish monarchs in the Americas?

Las Casas:

Once again the doctor twists my arguments. In fact it is more he than I who suggests treason. Of course God and the Pope have entrusted the most sacred duty of conversion to the sovereigns of Spain. In fact, "no one is qualified to have the care of those souls who is not the king of Castile." In other words, the king is ill served by these encomenderos to whom he delegates his authority--for they are driven by greed and self-interest rather than by loyalty to the Church or the Crown. They flagrantly violate the terms of the encomienda, for in pushing the natives to work on their farms and in their mines, they leave them no time to hear the word of God.

Sepulveda:

Libel! Just because "a few individuals are unjust or wicked, this in itself does not mean that their turpitude tarnishes all their people's reputation." Again, the friar exposes his idealism. How can the king carry out this task alone? The encomenderos have proven their valor and are fit for the task, but they too must eat. In return for religion and civilization, the Indians must work to support the costs of this mission.

Host:

Yes, I suppose it is a costly enterprise. Father, can the king exercise his sovereignty if his new vassals do not pay tribute or taxes?

Las Casas:

Of course not. If the King and his servants the friars follow my method of conversion the Indians will happily become subjects of Spain and voluntarily pay tribute directly to the crown. "To support all that concerns them and to serve...the Crown, it is necessary that the Indians work--but moderately, so that for that purpose they do not decline or die, as they have until the present." In this way many profits shall be generated and "the kings of Castile will be sufficiently recompensed for their care in introducing and preserving the faith in those kingdoms of the Indies."

Host:

Thank you.

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